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whitey10tc
05-12-2010, 12:31 AM
CLONING CELLULAR TELEPHONES

IN GENERAL

cloning.pdf Cloning Laws of the USA. ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

I must say that I do not condone cloning personally, nor does CDMA Gurus. Members please be advised that discussion out right instructions can not be tolerated here. If anyone remembers the old post from the original m-f.com the words repair and ----- were used, there were no mention of cl**in* or what networks they were on.

For anyone who might feel that I am wrong feel free to let me know. Both the government and carriers are always watching forums. So please respect forum rules and don't discuss cl**in* and don't do anything that will cause hell for gurus.

Killgorian
05-12-2010, 01:56 PM
I agree 100%. Its a stupid thing to do. I believe the penalty is 10 years and/or $10,000 fines. Its a federal violation and really has no place on forums like this.

RIP MOBILE-FILES
05-12-2010, 02:06 PM
(says with a serious face) i will like to add that infractions will be given to anyone who uses the wrong terminology so consider this a warning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Killgorian
05-12-2010, 02:54 PM
Whitey, delete me if Im changing the topic, but does anyone know the legalities of esn repair?

Mr._Pseudonym
05-12-2010, 05:03 PM
:^/ Fixing an accidentally corrupted ESN (repair) should be okay. Altering the ESN on one handset to match another so that hubby and wife can share the same account is stealing service, and thus illegal. The original MobileFiles.com had how-to threads for ESN repair, but they're shut down now. There's no way for us to know whether there was any connection....

whitey10tc
05-12-2010, 05:23 PM
:^/ Fixing an accidentally corrupted ESN (repair) should be okay. Altering the ESN on one handset to match another so that hubby and wife can share the same account is stealing service, and thus illegal. The original MobileFiles.com had how-to threads for ESN repair, but they're shut down now. There's no way for us to know whether there was any connection....Mainly I threw this post up because I had a PM by a Zero post user that wanted help cloning a device from one carrier to another that he had an account with but didn't carry that device. He had seen another user that was posting in the HTC thread about how he cloned an Eris (Verizon) with a Sprint Q9 ESN to work on Sprint. Those posts have been deleted now.
But there is where cloning will get you in trouble.
1. To have 2 devices with the same phone number.
2. To steal Identity's of others.
3. Theft of service.
4. Telecommunication fraud.
and the list goes on.

Times that it is legal are very thin.
ESN Repair is one case. But that is not cloning. Because you are simply writing the same ESN back to the device not an ESN from another device.

meanngreen04
05-12-2010, 05:29 PM
Exactly. One user banned temporarily for this today. Do not need negative attention drawn towards this site.

Killgorian
05-12-2010, 05:59 PM
Thats what I have always thought Whitey, I just heard something to the contrary once.

Flawed
05-12-2010, 10:51 PM
testing testing



**Mod Edit**

This was a test post.

Not a hijack.

ELHULK
05-13-2010, 11:47 AM
my brother did 3 years in lampoc for CL***ng back then in analog days , verizon wireless and other company i forgot where accusing him for stealing thousands of dollars investigation lasted 6 months before they caught ,,the feds will always get you no matter how smart you are

Help
05-16-2010, 02:02 PM
I confused. I know Steeling will get you in trouble.
But where a company (like boast or Pageplus) wont set up phones other than their own. Is it legal to swap esn's of phones that you own.
I know this is a slippery sloop. This is not being done to cheat anyone out of money or having two phones with the same esn.

Just a question please dont bann me.

whitey10tc
05-16-2010, 02:31 PM
I confused. I know Steeling will get you in trouble.
But where a company (like boast or Pageplus) wont set up phones other than their own. Is it legal to swap esn's of phones that you own.
I know this is a slippery sloop. This is not being done to cheat anyone out of money or having two phones with the same esn.

Just a question please dont bann me.The plain and simple answer is "It is illegal" if you read through the PDF linked in post 1 it will clarify alot for you. There are misconceptions that if you own the devices there is no harm, but the federal government and most governments around the world feel differently.

and nobodies going to ban you for asking why it's illegal.

ten0rplaya04
05-16-2010, 03:39 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but I just finished reading the document and I've come to these conclusions:

- Anyone who purchases CDMA Workshop could be fined for knowledgeable possession of software which could alter the serial number of a phone.
- Working as a telecommunications store "could" exempt you from prosecution.

Personal thoughts:
**Hidden Content: Check the thread to see hidden data.**

whitey10tc
05-16-2010, 04:56 PM
You are correct, but as my lawyer ounce told me. It's upto the courts and attorneys to really interpret the law. As for your personal thoughts: you have some good points but it would take an act of congress to change this law. As for the two carriers mentioned one will and has allowed customer provided handsets on their network. It takes alot of hard work but it can be done.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I just finished reading the document and I've come to these conclusions:

- Anyone who purchases CDMA Workshop could be fined for knowledgeable possession of software which could alter the serial number of a phone.
- Working as a telecommunications store "could" exempt you from prosecution.

Personal thoughts:
*** hidden content ***

decadude
06-07-2010, 01:41 PM
ESN Cloning is illegal and definitely not worth the trouble. I'll also point out that sim card cloning is illegal as well under federal guidelines. COMP128v1 encrypted cards are vulnerable but it is the fact of understanding security rather than utilizing your knowledge for malicious purposes. I work for a small retail company in arkansas doing IT security and people are caught often trying to breech security so never think your too smart to out think the system otherwise you will welcome yourself to a jail cell NOT COOL.

:)

jp135
06-25-2010, 04:41 PM
I’ve recently become interested in the subject of cloning phones for one simple reason. Verizon will practically give me a phone every time I sign a new two year agreement. The problem is, in my experience their phones do not last two years. If I am still under contract, they will charge me out the anus to get that phone replaced (insurance is a rip off).

They recently started enforcing their policy that if you purchase a prepaid phone at Wal-Mart, they require you to activate the phone under the prepaid plan for 6 months before they will allow you to switch to a postpaid plan. You cannot just go to their website and switch the ESN’s anymore.

As whitey10tc stated when he started this thread, “ESN Cloning is illegal.” I don’t disagree and the cloning.pdf document provided is a great read. Thank you for providing it.

It is important to understand what it means when you use the term “cloning.” The cloning.pdf document defines cloning as such: “The “cloning” of a cellular telephone occurs when the account number of a victim telephone user is stolen and reprogrammed into another cellular telephone.”

As addressed in cloning.pdf, one aspect of fraud that is a concern for wireless carriers is loss of use of an ESN when a phone is cloned and the ESN is reported stolen. There is a growing list of ESN’s that cannot be used anymore as a result of this.

ten0rplay04 stated that he read the cloning.pdf document and arrived at the following conclusion: “Anyone who purchases CDMA Workshop could be fined for knowledgeable possession of software which could alter the serial number of a phone. Working as a telecommunications store "could" exempt you from prosecution.” Based solely on the cloning.pdf document, I don’t agree with that conclusion and I have sent an email to CDMA WS makers to see if they agree. There are many functions included in the CDMA WS that have become very useful to users at any level.

The cloning.pdf document discusses the difficulty that law enforcement had in proving intent to defraud when they came across scanners and software used to modify cellular equipment. They had decided that scanners which could capture ESN’s have no legitimate use. Congress eliminated the intent to defraud element in the 1998 revision with respect to other types of hardware and software equipment.

Simply possessing hardware or software (other than scanners) does not imply the intent to defraud anymore. The document clearly states that, “the government only has to prove that the defendant used or possessed the hardware or software with the knowledge that it had been configured for modifying a cellular phone so that the phone could be used to obtain unauthorized access to telecommunications services.”

The key phrase is “unauthorized access to telecommunications services.” I agree with whitey10tc that having two devices with the same phone number is not authorized but I disagree with his statement that swapping the ESN’s of phones that you own “is illegal.” I also disagree with his statement that the PDF document proves that “the federal government and most governments around the world feel differently.” I believe that is opinion only and I did not read that anywhere in the document.

It is my opinion that swapping the ESN’s between two phones that you legally purchased is completely legal as it does not provide unauthorized access.

If I legally own two cell phones and decide to swap the ESN’s, I have not stolen the ESN’s and I am not providing myself with unauthorized access to other services. I am paying for every bit of it. If I purchase a prepaid phone, I am not required to activate it. I can have it sit in my drawer forever so I have not defrauded them of their expected profit on the sale of that prepaid phone.

At this point, I feel I must say that I am not an attorney. The opinions I have stated here are my own opinions expressed under my First Amendment right to freedom of speech. I have no affiliation with the owners of this forum and do not claim to have expressed their opinion in any way.

whitey10tc
06-25-2010, 05:18 PM
I’ve recently become interested in the subject of cloning phones for one simple reason. Verizon will practically give me a phone every time I sign a new two year agreement. The problem is, in my experience their phones do not last two years. If I am still under contract, they will charge me out the anus to get that phone replaced (insurance is a rip off).Here is some additional info:



Operations

Fraud


Cellular fraud is defined as the unauthorized use, tampering, or manipulation of a cellular phone or service. Cellular industry estimates indicate that carriers lose millions per year to cellular fraud, with the principal cause being subscription fraud. Subscriber fraud occurs when a subscriber signs up for service with fraudulently obtained customer information or false identification.
In the past, cloning of cellular phones was a major concern. A cloned cellular telephone is one that has been reprogrammed to transmit the electronic serial number (ESN) and telephone number (MIN) belonging to another (legitimate) cellular telephone. Unscrupulous persons obtain valid ESN/MIN combinations by illegally monitoring the transmissions from the cellular telephones of legitimate subscribers. Each cellular telephone is supposed to have a unique factory-set ESN. After cloning, however, because both cellular telephones have the same ESN/MIN combination, cellular systems cannot distinguish the cloned cellular telephone from the legitimate one.
The Commission considers any knowing use of cellular telephone with an altered ESN to be a violation of the Communications Act (Section 301) and alteration of the ESN in a cellular telephone to be assisting in such violation. The Wireless Telephone Protection Act (Public Law 105-172) was signed into law on April 24, 1998, expanding the prior law to criminalize the use, possession, manufacture or sale of cloning hardware or software. The cellular equipment manufacturing industry has deployed authentication systems that have proven to be a very effective countermeasure to cloning. Authentication supplements the use of the ESN and MIN with a changing encrypted code that can not be obtained by off-the-air monitoring.From the FCC site. ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Also look at it like the VIN of a car, it's assigned by the manufacturer to ID that unique vehicle.
Now as for ESN repair, there are very thin lines for repair and what defines a repair. To take a pre paid phone and "clone the ESN from a dead phone" to avoid insurance or buying a new phone or reupping a contract is fraud, theft, cloning, and illegal.

But you are free to interpret how you like. Just don't discuss the actual cloning or how to here.

jp135
06-25-2010, 06:23 PM
whitey10tc

Great posts. You are an excellent source of information, but I’ll continue to play devil’s advocate here.

I know you have condensed the FCC advisory in an effort to be concise but I am attaching the full Advisory in case anyone wants to read it.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

We’ll probably need the advice of an attorney to get the certified answer here. I'm just saying, if I decided to do it, this is the argument I would use.

This does not fall under legislation crafted for the VID number in a car so let’s not confuse the issue.

In my opinion, an ESN repair is just what is says. The ESN somehow was corrupted so you flash it back to its proper state. I don’t believe you can repair it by putting it on a different phone.

Anytime you use the word cloning, I am in agreement that it is illegal.

Regarding cloning, the advisory states, “After cloning, both the legitimate and the fraudulent cell phones have the same ESN/MIN combination and cellular systems cannot distinguish the cloned cell phone from the legitimate one. The legitimate phone user then gets billed for the cloned phone’s calls. Call your carrier if you think you have been a victim of cloning fraud.”

I don’t believe swapping ESN’s is cloning in any way. It may be classified as unauthorized tampering, but where does it say you must obtain authorization to flash a phone? If I buy a used non-Verizon phone, does Verizon suddenly have the right to dictate what I do to the phone? I don’t believe that is spelled out anywhere.

Somewhere in one of these forums, it was suggested to swap the ESN's using the software and then swap the stickers inside the phones. It's not a VIN number.

Under subscription fraud, the advisory states, “Lawbreakers obtain your personal information and use it to set up a cell phone account in your name.” This is certainly not subscription fraud.

Declining insurance, keeping your old phone, and not extending you contract is not fraudulent. Cloning is fraudulent however.

I find this very interesting and would love to read any other sources you have dug up.

Thanks for the dialogue.

jp135
06-25-2010, 06:41 PM
The Commission considers any knowing use of cellular telephone with an altered ESN to be a violation of the Communications Act (Section 301) and alteration of the ESN in a cellular telephone to be assisting in such violation.

Well, that's a pretty strong argument. I'm not an attorney but I would guess what the commission considers would hold up well in court. It sounds like you can change the ESN, but then you can't use the phone! tic

I'd have to do a little research to prepare an adequate rebuttal, but I've run out of time.

I mostly wanted to take part in presenting the argument in its entirety.

Thanks for the info.

whitey10tc
06-25-2010, 07:10 PM
I know you have condensed the FCC advisory in an effort to be concise but I am attaching the full Advisory in case anyone wants to read it.Well actually what I quoted was pulled direct from the FCC website * [Only registered and activated users can see links] *
This does not fall under legislation crafted for the VID number in a car so let’s not confuse the issue.I used the VIN from a car as an example for each being uniquely assigned.
In my opinion, an ESN repair is just what is says. The ESN somehow was corrupted so you flash it back to its proper state. I don’t believe you can repair it by putting it on a different phone.

Anytime you use the word cloning, I am in agreement that it is illegal.At least you agree there.
I don’t believe swapping ESN’s is cloning in any way. It may be classified as unauthorized tampering, but where does it say you must obtain authorization to flash a phone? If I buy a used non-Verizon phone, does Verizon suddenly have the right to dictate what I do to the phone? I don’t believe that is spelled out anywhere.Flashing is perfectly legal, but does not involve cloning or "Swapping" ESN's. *Note* It takes alot for Verizon to accept foreign ESN's but they do.
I don’t believe swapping ESN’s is cloning in any way. It may be classified as unauthorized tampering, but where does it say you must obtain authorization to flash a phone? If I buy a used non-Verizon phone, does Verizon suddenly have the right to dictate what I do to the phone? I don’t believe that is spelled out anywhere.

Somewhere in one of these forums, it was suggested to swap the ESN's using the software and then swap the stickers inside the phones. It's not a VIN number.Swapping would constitute changing the ESN that is in the carriers network not the phone. Providers swap ESN's in their system not the phone it self.
The Commission considers any knowing use of cellular telephone with an altered ESN to be a violation of the Communications Act (Section 301) and alteration of the ESN in a cellular telephone to be assisting in such violation.

Well, that's a pretty strong argument. I'm not an attorney but I would guess what the commission considers would hold up well in court. It sounds like you can change the ESN, but then you can't use the phone! tic

I'd have to do a little research to prepare an adequate rebuttal, but I've run out of time.

I mostly wanted to provide take part in presenting the argument in its entirety.

Thanks for the info. It has been a great discussion, Also welcome to Gurus.
On a Mod Note
No member has ever been banned for questions or opinions on this subject. What will get you banned is posting how to or requesting how to clone a ESN from one device to another. Legitimate repair is acceptable.

jp135
06-27-2010, 11:37 AM
whitey10tc you’ve given me a lot of homework to do.

The information you highlighted in bold type in your post above is a statement by the FCC which contains references to the Communications Act of 1934, as well as the Wireless Telephone Protection Act of 1998. There were many challenges to the FCC statement after it was made. In this case, the challenges have resulted in numerous modifications to the law soon after its enactment. Challenges were made by many organizations, including the CTIA (Cellular Telecommunications Industry Association).

In doing a Google search of the FCC statement, I found forums similar to this have quoting the same FCC statement. The statement is derived from a rule which was originally enacted in January of 1995 under Title 47 of the Code of Federal Regulations (C.F.R.) § 22.919. It was challenged many times and in April of 1998, overlapping legislation called the “Wireless Telephone Protection Act” was put in place. In the year 2000, there was a Biennial Regulatory Review “to Modify or Eliminate Outdated Rules Affecting the Cellular Radiotelephone Service and other Commercial Mobile Radio Services” which resulted in a Notice of Proposed Rule Making (NPRM) released May 17, 2001 (see: [Only registered and activated users can see links] ). The result was the elimination of 22.919 (see: [Only registered and activated users can see links] ). If you are interested in reading the rule when it was in effect as 22.919, you can find it here: [Only registered and activated users can see links] .

My guess is that the rule was eliminated for two reasons. First, it contained impractical challenges to cell phone manufacturers such as: The ESN must not be alterable, and, Cellular mobile equipment must be designed such that any attempt to remove, tamper with, or change the ESN chip, its logic system, or firmware originally programmed by the manufacturer will render the mobile transmitter inoperative. Second, Title 18 U.S.C. Section 1029 (the Wireless Telephone Protection Act) was crafted with more desirable language with the intention of replacing 22.919.

Discussions of 22.919 in the forum posts which I read brought out the fact that carriers who routinely change the ESN of phones in their inventory would be in violation of the rule as stated. If an ESN is stolen by someone using a scanner, the authorized account user would be forced to replace the phone unless the provider was allowed to change the ESN and ship it back to the authorized user.

From what I understand, the Wireless Telephone Protection Act of 1998 (source:[Only registered and activated users can see links]) was introduced as Public Law 105-172 which amended Title 18 U.S.C. Section 1029 (Credit Card Fraud Act). Here is a source for Section 1029 after the Act has been applied to it: [Only registered and activated users can see links] . So, 22.919 is no longer in effect and the rules for ESN changes now fall under Section 1029, of the Credit Card Fraud Act.

Anyone interested in this subject should read and understand Section 1029. The most important verbiage I got from it is that Section 1029 consistently refers to a violator as someone who “knowingly and with intent to defraud” gains “unauthorized access” to services using “counterfeit access devices.”

I have a closet full of cell phones which I have purchased over the years. I can take any of those cell phones out of the closet, charge it up and tell my provider the ESN which I would like to associate with my phone number. I can legally access my service with any of those devices. I would argue that swapping the ESN’s does not provide me with access that is any different than it was with the original ESN, as long as duplicate ESN’s are not being used at the same time (defined as cloning). I would also argue that swapping ESN’s should not constitute the “intent to defraud” because I am paying for the service and not obtaining anything extra.

Somewhere in the discussion of the NPRM it mentioned that the reason for the changes was not to provide additional control by a small group of providers, but rather to increase competition among those providers.

I should also say that many of these arguments have been made by a defense attorney during the appeal process while the defendant waited behind bars. Many are at least ten years old, but if you poke a dog too many times, you’ll probably get bitten.

Do I believe strongly enough in this advice to start a cell phone business where you send me two phones and I’ll swap the ESN’s for you? Obviously not, and if you’re thinking about it, talk to an attorney. If it’s a good business model, I would be happy to accept ten percent.

Feel free to discuss or disagree. It’s more important to know the truth than it is to feel important while ignoring the truth. I’ll never claim to be entirely sure of anything.

Thanks for the welcome to the forum; it is nice to be a part of a group of individuals who have such a ferocious desire to learn.

whitey10tc
06-27-2010, 01:09 PM
I will take sometime tomorrow and read through your references, but I do want to point out a few things.
You reference
Discussions of 22.919 in the forum posts which I read brought out the fact that carriers who routinely change the ESN of phones in their inventory would be in violation of the rule as stated. If an ESN is stolen by someone using a scanner, the authorized account user would be forced to replace the phone unless the provider was allowed to change the ESN and ship it back to the authorized user.in most cases there are insurance claims to cover this, but if the carrier does "change" the ESN it would be a repair and the consumer will most likely receive documentation stating such.
swap the ESN Swapping and cloning are two different things here. You swap an ESN on an account not the phones. You clone an ESN on the phones.

But defiantly stated earlier in this thread it is ultimately up to the courts and lawyers to interpret the laws.
Also if I can find the waiver form I'll post it for all then you can see what is truly required to change the ESN from one device to another.

jp135
06-27-2010, 02:32 PM
Thank you whitey, the FCC document which talks about knowingly using a cellular phone with an altered ESN has a November 15, 2007 date on it as indicated by the search engine information, but the document does not seem to be dated. That’s one inconsistency and I don’t see where use of a cell phone with an altered ESN is currently addressed in any current laws. I’m thinking of calling the FCC tomorrow to see where that information comes from.

Other than the web document which refers to the statement, “The Commission considers any knowing use of cellular telephone with an altered ESN to be a violation of the Communications Act,” the only legislation I see which refers to using a phone with an altered ESN is “Changing Electronic Serial Numbers on Cellular Phones is a Violation of the Commission's Rules (Oct. 2, 1991) (FCC Public Notice 20011).” That’s 20 years old and if you read through the NPRM, it talks about why they had to remove the restriction to change and use a phone with altered ESN’s. It had to do with Smart Card technology.

Stated in the NPRM is the Commissions belief that parties believe that “smart cards now provide better protection from fraudulent tampering than do hardened ESN components,” and “As a general policy, we prefer to allow market forces to determine technical standards wherever possible, and thus we do not adopt rules mandating detailed hardware design requirements for telecommunications equipment, except where doing so is necessary to achieve a specific public interest goal.” They also talk about advancements in fraud control technology which have eliminated the need to use hardened ESN’s.

We may be using the same term to mean different things when it comes to the word “swapping.” I’m sure you are aware that I am using it with reference to changing the ESN in the phone as opposed to switching it on the network. The more I read about it, the more I can’t see a thing wrong with it. I am convinced that smart cards will eventually do away with CDMA, but that’s a different discussion. It might be more complicated to switch the ESN from one cell phone to another when using CDMA versus smart cards, but in my opinion it amounts to the same thing and I think the government does not want to legislate one over the other.

You are certainly not alone in your belief that we are not supposed to change ESN’s and I’m still waiting for you to spring that Ace in the hole which says beyond any doubt, it is illegal. I’ll let you know what the FCC says.

Here is someone else that I just came across with the same line of reasoning which I have been arguing: [Only registered and activated users can see links] . Perhaps it is a different perspective.

jp135
06-28-2010, 10:47 AM
On Monday, June 28, 2010 I called the licensing branch of the FAA and they took all of the information which I had questions about, particularly regarding the statement from the FCC website which states, "The Commission considers any knowing use of cellular telephone with an altered ESN to be a violation of the Communications Act (Section 301) and alteration of the ESN in a cellular telephone to be assisting in such violation." (see: [Only registered and activated users can see links])

The FCC is escalating it to the proper department an will call me asap.

I will relay any information passed on to me.

jp135
07-01-2010, 02:39 PM
The FCC just returned my call and I spoke with a law clerk in the mobility division of the FCC. Here is what was discussed:

I gave them the web address and verbiage for the following statement: "The Commission considers any knowing use of cellular telephone with an altered ESN to be a violation of the Communications Act (Section 301) and alteration of the ESN in a cellular telephone to be assisting in such violation." (see: [Only registered and activated users can see links]). They did some research to see if it still applies.

The answer he came back with is that the website is out of date and that statement no longer applies. They are submitting an order to take the page down from their website. This was out of date as of 9/24/2002 in conjunction with the NPRM that I previously referred to.

The clerk advised me that the NPRM took them out of the business of rulemaking with regard to ESN’s because the new federal statute provided sufficient protection. Newly developed fraud protection methods and smart card technology made the rules unnecessary.

The only law that applies now is Title 18 U.S.C. Section 1029: (see: [Only registered and activated users can see links]). If you are going to change an ESN, read it in its entirety and be familiar with it.

With regard to 1029.a.1 in order to be in violation of the statute, you have to satisfy all of the following;
1) Use a counterfeit access device
2) Do it knowingly
3) Do it with the intent to defraud
Satisfying just one of the three is not sufficient to constitute a violation.

The statute defines a counterfeit access device as, “any access device that is counterfeit, fictitious, altered, or forged, or an identifiable component of an access device or a counterfeit access device.” It is my belief that simply changing the ESN does not make the device counterfeit. It’s easy to say that changing the ESN alters the phone but even making a phone call changes the memory contents of the phone and therefore alters it. Even so, you still have to do it with the intent to defraud.

If I received a phone in the mail and it did not work with the current ESN, I believe it is within my rights to use the ESN from another phone I have to see if I can get it to work. Many call this an ESN “repair.” That seems to be a perfectly valid word to describe what has taken place. Do I have to zero out the ESN of the phone I borrowed it from or swap the inside label from the two phones? I don’t believe so. As long as you are not using two phones with the same ESN at the same time, you certainly have not defrauded anyone. Even if you did turn them on at the same time, from what I have read, newly developed fraud identification devices can identify the devices as having the same ESN within 20 seconds. From what I understand, some systems will degrade the signal of the second device that has logged on and render it virtually inoperative.

Also, don’t forget about the agreement on the side of a prepaid phone which prohibits altering the hardware or software in the phone, where upon opening the package, you are agreeing to the terms. Many prepaid phones are not sold in the package.

If I decided to change an ESN, I would scratch out the old number and stick a label over that area with the new ESN. In this way, the model number on the label always agrees with the model of the phone.

With regard to 1029.a.7, “knowingly and with intent to defraud uses, produces, traffics in, has control or custody of, or possesses a telecommunications instrument that has been modified or altered to obtain unauthorized use of telecommunications services,” only use the phone on an account you are authorized to use.

With regard to 1029.a.9, “knowingly uses, produces, traffics in, has control or custody of, or possesses hardware or software, knowing it has been configured to insert or modify telecommunication identifying information associated with or contained in a telecommunications instrument so that such instrument may be used to obtain telecommunications service without authorization,” don’t use the software to configure your phone to gain access to someone else’s account unless you are authorized to do it.

I don’t see where possession of CDMA Workshop is a violation of 1029.a.9 unless you configure it to obtain service you are not authorized to receive. I would compare this to using a copy machine to reproduce material subject to copyright law. You are not authorized to copy documents without permission of the owner.

All that said, I am still in agreement that cloning is illegal as long as you define cloning using the definition in previous documentation which says, “The “cloning” of a cellular telephone occurs when the account number of a victim telephone user is stolen and reprogrammed into another cellular telephone.”

whitey10tc
07-01-2010, 04:39 PM
The answer he came back with is that the website is out of date and that statement no longer applies. They are submitting an order to take the page down from their website. This was out of date as of 9/24/2002 in conjunction with the NPRM that I previously referred to. I was referred here [Only registered and activated users can see links] so I have contacted them on the subject as well.


The only law that applies now is Title 18 U.S.C. Section 1029: (see: [Only registered and activated users can see links]). If you are going to change an ESN, read it in its entirety and be familiar with it. Link does not work.


With regard to 1029.a.1 in order to be in violation of the statute, you have to satisfy all of the following;
1) Use a counterfeit access device
2) Do it knowingly
3) Do it with the intent to defraud

Satisfying just one of the three is not sufficient to constitute a violation.
The statute defines a counterfeit access device as, “any access device that is counterfeit, fictitious, altered, or forged, or an identifiable component of an access device or a counterfeit access device.” It is my belief that simply changing the ESN does not make the device counterfeit. It’s easy to say that changing the ESN alters the phone but even making a phone call changes the memory contents of the phone and therefore alters it. Even so, you still have to do it with the intent to defraud. Title 18 section 1029 (e) clearly defines an Electronic serial number being an access device. There for making a phone call does not alter that.

(e) As used in this section— (1) the term “access device” means any card, plate, code, account number, electronic serial number, mobile identification number, personal identification number, or other telecommunications service, equipment, or instrument identifier, or other means of account access that can be used, alone or in conjunction with another access device, to obtain money, goods, services, or any other thing of value, or that can be used to initiate a transfer of funds (other than a transfer originated solely by paper instrument);

If I received a phone in the mail and it did not work with the current ESN, I believe it is within my rights to use the ESN from another phone I have to see if I can get it to work. Many call this an ESN “repair.” That seems to be a perfectly valid word to describe what has taken place. Do I have to zero out the ESN of the phone I borrowed it from or swap the inside label from the two phones? I don’t believe so. As long as you are not using two phones with the same ESN at the same time, you certainly have not defrauded anyone. Even if you did turn them on at the same time, from what I have read, newly developed fraud identification devices can identify the devices as having the same ESN within 20 seconds. From what I understand, some systems will degrade the signal of the second device that has logged on and render it virtually inoperative. Essentially repair is just that, a repair. Lets say you have 2 Motorola V3c's one had a bad board and a good ESN on the Sprint network and the other has a good board but a bad ESN, is it legal to repair the good ESN on the good board. Most would say yes.
Is it legal to take am HTC Imagio from Verizon and "repair the ESN" with a Sprint Samsung ESN to work on Sprint, most will say no because according to [Only registered and activated users can see links] the ESN is assigned by the manufacturer and also recorded and submitted to the TIA.


Also, don’t forget about the agreement on the side of a prepaid phone which prohibits altering the hardware or software in the phone, where upon opening the package, you are agreeing to the terms. Many prepaid phones are not sold in the package.Prepaid phones are generally sold with no contract and some may view it as fraud or attempted fraud by depriving the provider either the renewal contract or retail price of a different device.

If I decided to change an ESN, I would scratch out the old number and stick a label over that area with the new ESN. In this way, the model number on the label always agrees with the model of the phone.

With regard to 1029.a.7, “knowingly and with intent to defraud uses, produces, traffics in, has control or custody of, or possesses a telecommunications instrument that has been modified or altered to obtain unauthorized use of telecommunications services,” only use the phone on an account you are authorized to use."Altered to obtain unauthorized use." This I believe would fall in above with using a Verizon HTC device with a Sprint Samsung ESN on the Sprint network. Sprint authorized the Samsung device for use on their network, not the Verizon HTC device.


With regard to 1029.a.9, “knowingly uses, produces, traffics in, has control or custody of, or possesses hardware or software, knowing it has been configured to insert or modify telecommunication identifying information associated with or contained in a telecommunications instrument so that such instrument may be used to obtain telecommunications service without authorization,” don’t use the software to configure your phone to gain access to someone else’s account unless you are authorized to do it.

I don’t see where possession of CDMA Workshop is a violation of 1029.a.9 unless you configure it to obtain service you are not authorized to receive. I would compare this to using a copy machine to reproduce material subject to copyright law. You are not authorized to copy documents without permission of the owner. I don't believe that CDMA WS would fall into this category, as it's primary purpose is a phone service tool.


All that said, I am still in agreement that cloning is illegal as long as you define cloning using the definition in previous documentation which says, “The “cloning” of a cellular telephone occurs when the account number of a victim telephone user is stolen and reprogrammed into another cellular telephone.”You have a point here, but in general discussions "cloning" an ESN generally refers to changing one ESN to another from a different device.

jp135
07-01-2010, 11:16 PM
Whitey,

I could make an argument on either side. It was my intention to provide one side of it. As I said, every person interested in this area should read Section 1029 (I think the link is working now). Some of the points you made I didn’t quite understand. I’m certainly not trying to step on anyone’s toes. You have been at this a lot longer than I have. I was only trying to clarify the fact that the link to the FCC’s website provided inaccurate information so it cannot be used to support an argument. Yes, Section 1029 clearly applies to ESN’s and that’s why I supplied the link. I think “repair” can, and has, been defined in many different ways. That word is not used in Section 1029 so I don’t think it matters how it is defined.

I appreciate all the input you have provided in order to allow others to make their own decision with regard to changing an ESN.

The Federal Government has been clear with regard to the ESN legislature business. They have put in writing their desire to allow market forces to work this out. I have done the research and I don’t think there is anything wrong with changing an ESN in the manner I have suggested in my post.

I came across the TIA website and read the information they have put out. Others reading this might not know that the TIA (Telecommunications Industry Association) is a trade association which represents global industries. They are not a law making organization. Most people know that sometimes justice in this country is only as good as the money you have backing you. I wouldn’t want to defend myself against a global association in a civil suit, but that does not keep me from doing things that are within my legal rights as a citizen.

In this case, it is my feeling that the oppression we may feel is coming from multinational corporations and not the federal government. It is not in the best interest of this multinational corporation to go after small fish who understand the nature of the conflict between CDMA and GSM.

As I said earlier, it is not my intention to keep poking the big dog. Anyone desiring to start a business which advertises the fact that they will change ESN’s for their clients should consult an attorney. There might be big money in it, but then again you may be facing big money suits. That would be a decision for a business man, not for a small fish like me.

whitey10tc
07-02-2010, 12:19 AM
jp135,
You have brought new information to the forum and have very valid points, it is much appreciated.
Through my research on the matter and through the years, I have learned some laws. Federal, civil, criminal, state, and local but more contradict each other than agree.
For instance here locally, Salt Lake county, Utah it is a 3rd degree felony to change any type of serial number with out prior written consent from the manufacturer or a government official. This applies but is not limited to, vehicles, electronics, software, etc. There are exceptions to the local/state law.

Ultimately the reason why discussions of "cloning" on most all forums associated with cell phones is taboo. Is because if someone explains how exactly to do it legally, there are those criminals that will bend it and use what is posted, illegally or fraudulently and implicate the forum/members in the criminal actions.

But I do agree that before anyone even thinks of starting a business of this nature must first consult an attorney specialized in the telecommunications industry.

trippymg
10-03-2010, 02:11 PM
I have been read over all the information here and it seems to be very unclear. **All the next statements are clearly what ifs and I am trying to get a more clear picture on which aspects are illegal** Let's say I went to best buy and bought a Sanyo Mirro for boost mobile. I legally purchase this device will full intention of using it for boost mobile. I get home I activate the phone I and use it for a few months. All these new smart phones are coming out with all these new wonderful features. Next I see that many people are using these smart phones from carriers like sprint,verizon, us cellular, and they are activating it with companies like Cricket, Metro PCS, Page Plus etc etc. Now at this point I understand that it is fully legal because they are not altering the esn/meid in anyway but simply having that esn added to the different carriers database. Boost mobile does not allow other carriers meid/esn to be added to there database thus stopping anyway to activate other carriers phones (I understand also the concepts of using sprint.com to activate a non exclusive sprint phone). Now lets say I purchase a used HTC Incredible or similar phone from a private seller on craigslist or similar source. I purchase this phone legally and buy it for the sole purpose of personal use.

This is where everything starts getting blurry, Now I own 2 legally purchased phones. I am using a legally obtainted prepaid service with a phone number and msid ONLY used by me. Now here is my question, regarding the law of cloning/swapping If the 2 phones are completely identical in all information all profiles all msid,mdn,imsi, esn/meid all identifying factors and only 1 device is being used at all times where does the fraud occur. Since i purchased both phones legally and have full intentions of using ONLY services that I am paying for.

I am just trying to understand everyone's input and am curious as to all the legal aspects. In no way am i asking anyone for any information on how to do any of these processes. I am only asking information of United States law and based on the scenario above what the Fraud is or what laws it is violating. AGAIN I AM NOT ASKING FOR ANY INFORMATION WHAT SO EVER ON HOW THESE PROCESSES ARE ACCOMPLISHED OR DONE SIMPLY ON THE LAW IN ACCORDANCE TO THESE PROCESSES.

^^ Just want to be really clear since I am new to the forum and have found this topic really interesing, as everywhere on the web response and input is very different. I know the law can be interpreted differently so I would like to here everyone's input!

Pac3comm1
10-03-2010, 04:42 PM
The fraud occurs when a signal transmitted from a tower splits and goes to both devices containing identical MDN,MIN, ESN information. To the best of my knowledge, it is implied that the act of cloning is illegal when there is a duplicate of a "legitimate" cellular device. Legitimate meaning active. I could be wrong but I m pretty sure thats how that works.

trippymg
10-03-2010, 05:18 PM
The fraud occurs when a signal transmitted from a tower splits and goes to both devices containing identical MDN,MIN, ESN information. To the best of my knowledge, it is implied that the act of cloning is illegal when there is a duplicate of a "legitimate" cellular device. Legitimate meaning active. I could be wrong but I m pretty sure thats how that works.

I can understand but I dont see how that applys if one of the phones is completely off battery removed how could they both be transmitting signal if the device is off?

whitey10tc
10-03-2010, 05:32 PM
I can understand but I dont see how that applys if one of the phones is completely off battery removed how could they both be transmitting signal if the device is off?The fraud occurs, when two devices have the same Identification. Rather active, inactive, turned off, etc.
Just think of it like a car, or any other pc of electronics no two have the same ESN, Serial number, or VIN. There are legal ways to do it that require a form to be filed, that includes the manufacturer's agreeing to the change in their records and then is submitted to the FCC.

Mr._Pseudonym
10-03-2010, 09:16 PM
The fraud occurs when a signal transmitted from a tower splits and goes to both devices containing identical MDN,MIN, ESN information. To the best of my knowledge, it is implied that the act of cloning is illegal when there is a duplicate of a "legitimate" cellular device. Legitimate meaning active. I could be wrong but I m pretty sure thats how that works.

:^/ There's a bit of a misleading concept in your wording, sir. A radio wave from the tower to the phone doesn't get split. Instead, radio waves travel in all directions, so every handset in range picks up all transmissions. It's just that only the handset with the matching MDN, MIN and ESN reacts to the signal by ringing at you. All other handsets ignore it.

whitey10tc
10-03-2010, 09:46 PM
I have been read over all the information here and it seems to be very unclear. **All the next statements are clearly what ifs and I am trying to get a more clear picture on which aspects are illegal** Let's say I went to best buy and bought a Sanyo Mirro for boost mobile. I legally purchase this device will full intention of using it for boost mobile. I get home I activate the phone I and use it for a few months. All these new smart phones are coming out with all these new wonderful features. Next I see that many people are using these smart phones from carriers like sprint,verizon, us cellular, and they are activating it with companies like Cricket, Metro PCS, Page Plus etc etc. Now at this point I understand that it is fully legal because they are not altering the esn/meid in anyway but simply having that esn added to the different carriers database. Boost mobile does not allow other carriers meid/esn to be added to there database thus stopping anyway to activate other carriers phones (I understand also the concepts of using sprint.com to activate a non exclusive sprint phone). Now lets say I purchase a used HTC Incredible or similar phone from a private seller on craigslist or similar source. I purchase this phone legally and buy it for the sole purpose of personal use.

This is where everything starts getting blurry, Now I own 2 legally purchased phones. I am using a legally obtainted prepaid service with a phone number and msid ONLY used by me. Now here is my question, regarding the law of cloning/swapping If the 2 phones are completely identical in all information all profiles all msid,mdn,imsi, esn/meid all identifying factors and only 1 device is being used at all times where does the fraud occur. Since i purchased both phones legally and have full intentions of using ONLY services that I am paying for.

I am just trying to understand everyone's input and am curious as to all the legal aspects. In no way am i asking anyone for any information on how to do any of these processes. I am only asking information of United States law and based on the scenario above what the Fraud is or what laws it is violating. AGAIN I AM NOT ASKING FOR ANY INFORMATION WHAT SO EVER ON HOW THESE PROCESSES ARE ACCOMPLISHED OR DONE SIMPLY ON THE LAW IN ACCORDANCE TO THESE PROCESSES.

^^ Just want to be really clear since I am new to the forum and have found this topic really interesing, as everywhere on the web response and input is very different. I know the law can be interpreted differently so I would like to here everyone's input!
I also wanted to add, sense you asked where the fraud would be. Well you would be committing fraud by using a phone that boost does not support or sale. Boost in particular is designed to run their phones through the prepaid division. If you started putting a heavy data using phone like an Incredible on it, it will cause problems with their system and other users. Also if they did an audit of their system they will know that your Android is not a Sanyo or what ever by the id it will broadcast.
And yes there is an ID other than the ESN/MEID it is broadcasted everytime you have a data connection.

Guest
10-04-2010, 01:28 PM
According to the FCC and the DOC, it is a violation for you just to have the software capable of writing an ESN unless you are authorized by a person recognized by the authorities as having permission to create/write ESN's. Repair is still wrong in the eyes of the FCC/DOC. Of course, the FCC says that the handset requirements state that while a manufacturer can have the ability to rewrite an ESN, it should be made increasingly difficult to do so.

As far a device being on a network that the network didn't intend or doesn't otherwise allow,.. yeah, it's obviously a breach of the user/service agreements and perhaps anti-trafficking laws.

It's not generally about what might be illegal, it's about what you do that actions might be taken against.

For a simple example for how you might get caught, most phones state what type of device they are when you go online, so the pages look better... this alone could cause the carrier to require you to take your phone in to a dealer to have it checked or forfeit your service. Legal mumbojumbo... the bigger the corporation, the more they generally use.

andersoncell
11-17-2010, 02:30 AM
Here's my take on it.

I have opened and ran my cell phone store for almost a year now. I have never cloned or replaced an esn. But CDMA workshop is useful for loading PRL's and manually programming when OTA fails and you can't find the HIDDEN IDIOT codes to access the service programming area of a phone...

With that being said we have to realize WHY would you swap ESN's....

For the MOST PART this is why...

You have a dumb phone (interpreted a basic flip camera phone), you friend who is ON CONTRACT with Verizon has a nice new DROID INCREDIBLE... well your friend decided NOT TO PAY VERIZON ANYMORE and sold you the phone ridiculously cheap... So here you are with a great phone that wont activate on say pageplus because there is a bill attached....

That is when it is MOST OFTEN used in my opinion...a smaller portion may be phones that were reported lost or stolen....

So although I am AGAINST cdma based companies locking down their phones, I can see where you WOULD be defrauding VERIZON by using this phone with a swapped ESN!! Simply for the fact that that is how verizon increases RETENTION and profits, by LOCKING down a phone with an unpaid bill attached....

I see no LEGIT or RIGHT reason to swap an ESN other than the fact that with the current ESN for whatever reason you want to use that bad esn phone and the carrier DOES NOT want you to...

With all that being said I still say if you own it you can do what you want with it as long as you are not hurting anyone (carriers included). If I had an LG ENV2 with a broken charger port and my friend had an ENV2 he didn't pay the bill on a year ago, that was in pristine condition.... Then if the esn was swapped and the previous phone destroyed (simply because LG charger ports SUCK and break prematurely) Then I do not see the harm in it.... but current law does...



-----------------------
Maybe current law should be changed. A LEGITIMATE telecommunication store should be allowed to atleast swap and destroy the same MODEL of phones.... So just swap esn's on the SAME MODEL and destroy the old phone, for reasons of breakage, water damage etc.... Atleast that would be a positive step...

I feel the lawmakers are lead BY THE carrier lobbyists to believe evil hackers are stealing peoples accounts so that 80 year old politician freaks and therefore there is NO LEGIT reason to do it PRESENTED to the lawmakers... just my take on it

andersoncell
11-17-2010, 02:44 AM
Then another sidenote notice the dates of everything 1998??? Phones just came out... So much has changed since then... I hate it when laws are outdated and especially when there is no advocacy group in place to let lawmakers know to "hey update this stuff already"

That brings to mind also this.... I see IPHONE motherboards being sold on ebay (although it uses IMEI thats the same as an esn)... so if your phone breaks you can buy one of them and transplant that motherboard into your water damaged phone.... technically you have PARTS from 2 different phones... is that illegal??? Just curious on that one...anyone can "INTERPRET" that one?? DOES IT COME DOWN to that is hardware and not software swapping maybe?? IF IT IS considered illegal also then guess what, my philips head screwdriver and pry tool is doing the job of CDMA WORKSHOP....lol

andersoncell
11-17-2010, 03:01 AM
Ok last post...lol... sorry insomnia kicking in and this interests me at the moment....

Reading thru that .pdf, its all talking about cloning with intent to steal someones service yada yada some real cloak and dagger HACKERZ type stuff...by using SOMEONE ELSE's ESN/MIN combination.and having THEM foot the bill for calls you made... ummm.. what if it is your assigned MIN from whatever provider...?. Yes that is even ILLEGAL, but would this possibly be a facet to present into with future legislation?

What I am getting at is THEY are talking SERVICE (Account) SPECIFIC in that .pdf when "we" are talking DEVICE specific....hope I got that across understandably...// So its like illegal to use someone else's SERVICE, where we are talking about using a privately owned DEVICE that would not interfere with another customer accont....

Of course I am in noway condoning because IT IS ILLEGAL (still in ALL REGARDS)... I just want to understand better "why" and "what for"...and if there could be arguments to ADD TO the current legislation. Knowledge is power, unfortunately the lawmakers are PRESENTED knowledge that may not cover the FULL SCOPE sometimes..

Hope I did not overstep or say something wrong here only trying to explore this issue to all degrees...and DEBATE this from a professional standpoint.

whitey10tc
11-17-2010, 02:12 PM
You have a dumb phone (interpreted a basic flip camera phone), you friend who is ON CONTRACT with Verizon has a nice new DROID INCREDIBLE... well your friend decided NOT TO PAY VERIZON ANYMORE and sold you the phone ridiculously cheap... So here you are with a great phone that wont activate on say pageplus because there is a bill attached....

That is when it is MOST OFTEN used in my opinion...a smaller portion may be phones that were reported lost or stolen....This would be cloning, and defrauding the carrier.
I see no LEGIT or RIGHT reason to swap an ESN other than the fact that with the current ESN for whatever reason you want to use that bad esn phone and the carrier DOES NOT want you to...
another fine example of defrauding the carrier and cloning.
With all that being said I still say if you own it you can do what you want with it as long as you are not hurting anyone (carriers included). If I had an LG ENV2 with a broken charger port and my friend had an ENV2 he didn't pay the bill on a year ago, that was in pristine condition.... Then if the esn was swapped and the previous phone destroyed (simply because LG charger ports SUCK and break prematurely) Then I do not see the harm in it.... but current law does...Repairing a phone with a new MB and repiaring the ESN/MEID to match that on the manufacturer sticker is just that a repair.

Then another sidenote notice the dates of everything 1998??? Phones just came out... So much has changed since thenCellphones have been around alot longer than 1998, the first cellular phone/radio was introduced in World War II. I owned my first bag phone in 1990, upgraded to a brick in 1992.
To legitimately change an ESN for example from a Samsung A640 to a Motorola Droid there would be legal documents that would need to be submitted to the FCC and both manufacturers. It can be done legally but it is is a head ache.
Think of the analogy of a cars VIN.
You want to have a Mercedes Benz but don't want to pay the high taxes, is it ok to change that VIN to one from a Pinto? No it's illegal.

xkcd42
01-03-2011, 05:19 PM
I've finally made it through everything referenced and stated here, which took quite a while.
Anywho... It is my opinion that copying the ESN from a phone (or copying a SIM card) would be extremely difficult to manage in a legal fashion.

While there may be legal uses for moving an ESN from one phone to another (as long as it is removed from the original), these legal uses have redtape associated with them. Whether that be a waiver from the appropriate legal or commercial entity, or a license to create/change ESNs--either of which would have strict limitations and legal parameters-- is up to the various sections of local, state, and federal law and the manufacturers of the devices (if there are any contractual elements necessitated by the purchase [ie terms of used, et cetera]).
Illegal uses abound for this process though, and as such it is risky to attempt even the legal uses without strict written permission from the appropriate source.

Would it be acceptable to exchange (or 'swap') the ESNs on two devices? It would depend on the reasons (and any legal or contractual limitations that are specific to the phones in use for the operation). Let us say that two friends both have identical service plans on their respective networks and each plan comes with a free 'starter' phone and they each prefer the starter phone that the other friend's plan came with. After going through the necessary legal/contractual arrangements, the two friends could have the ESNs on their respective phones flipped so that each had the preferred phone. In my opinion (which is formed by little legal experience, and by the information presented so far here and in a few other places), this would be legal.

Would it be easier to legally have the ESNs swapped out by the service providers? that would depend on the CS for the respective companies, any activation fees that would apply, et cetera. The proposed route, since it is not being used to defraud (or hypothetically violate contractual agreement or local law) would hence be legal, and potentially cheaper and faster as well.

If I could find a market for this sort of work, I would definitely approach a lawyer for his interpretations of applicable law et cetera. I would also make any customers who wish to use my service sign off a statement prepared by the aforementioned lawyer that what they are asking me to do is in no way violated their ToS or any local laws, which would take the responsibility off me, since I was providing what I was informed of as a legal service.

The whole process just seems to me like it would take more than the worthwhile effort to legally do any ESN editing.

thesmitty68521
01-03-2011, 06:29 PM
You raise some good points in your post. The best one is that it is too much trouble to go through to get into the business of changing or even swapping ESN's. As for ESN repair, that seems to be legal. However, in the four years I have been doing this, I have only had to repair a handful of ESN's. Of course I am not counting the ones that are zero'd out due to a flashing procedure such as the LG Banter.

We forbid any mention of ESN cloning on this website to stay out of trouble. Also, I am not a big fan of cloning or changing ESN's. The reason why is pretty simple. If you are cloning or "swapping" ESN's, you are probably up to no good. This can range from avoiding the $15 charge for an ESN change to flat out stalking someone. They are both wrong and against the law.

I like your input though.

BobB
01-13-2011, 07:16 PM
Hi all I am new here but you guys got one of the best discussions going on esn's. I thought I would toss in what I found out.

Funny I saw people yelling all over the internet about changing esn being illegal, so I did some research. Turns out in California you can't even remove the serial number from your typewriter, dictaphone or any other entertainment or recreational equipment, as well as a ton of other stuff. Even if you bought the item legally and own it out right. See [Only registered and activated users can see links]

So if the ESN is consisdered the serial number (which I think it is) then in CA you can not change it, swap it, hide it, mark over it or even cover it with a piece of tape. <sarcasm>This is for your own safety people</sarcasm>

So it seems even removing that tag on your pillow that says "It is illegal to remove this tag" is illegal. I am thinking of removing all the serial numbers from everything I own and taking it down the the police station just to challenge this law. While I understand they are trying to eliminate the sale of stolen property, I just think this is another case of harassing the law abiding people and eliminating our freedom.

rich hathaway
01-13-2011, 10:16 PM
esn = electronic serial number

Killgorian
01-13-2011, 10:44 PM
Hi all I am new here but you guys got one of the best discussions going on esn's. I thought I would toss in what I found out.

Funny I saw people yelling all over the internet about changing esn being illegal, so I did some research. Turns out in California you can't even remove the serial number from your typewriter, dictaphone or any other entertainment or recreational equipment, as well as a ton of other stuff. Even if you bought the item legally and own it out right. See [Only registered and activated users can see links]

So if the ESN is consisdered the serial number (which I think it is) then in CA you can not change it, swap it, hide it, mark over it or even cover it with a piece of tape. <sarcasm>This is for your own safety people</sarcasm>

So it seems even removing that tag on your pillow that says "It is illegal to remove this tag" is illegal. I am thinking of removing all the serial numbers from everything I own and taking it down the the police station just to challenge this law. While I understand they are trying to eliminate the sale of stolen property, I just think this is another case of harassing the law abiding people and eliminating our freedom.

Hehe. Well in the case of cell phones of course there is a legitimate reason for it being illegal. And honestly I agree with the law 100% as long as it always accounts for repair.

rupee
12-02-2011, 04:43 PM
Maybe it is illegal, but if you wont to do this you can try to use a program named “*** tool”. This tool supports a lot of CDMA handsets. It can help you with your phone without large knowledge’s in CDMA technologies. It is professional tool with easy interface! To read about you can here - cdmatool.com

[Only registered and activated users can see links]